how not to install a transducer...

how not to install a transducer...got a few pictures here...
first...
a thru hull transducer,it needs a fairing block,the block is a two fold,first,it allows the 'ducer to be mounted correctly into the hull.by this i mean it will read straight down,rather than off to the side-due to the "v" of a hull...second,it makes a sealing surface for the 'ducer.the 'ducer needs the block to have a good sealing surfce,without the block,most 'ducers have a very tiny area to seal the hull.
use the blue composite blocks,avoid using wood.i cut the block,after i find the correct angle,using a table saw.again,i don't reccomend wood...after you drilled the hole in the boat,remove the bottom paint in the area where the block will rest,rough up the gel coat too.by doing this,you will assure a good adhesion for the 5200.remember,nothing sticks to bottom paint,so remove it...
sealers...i use and reccomend only one sealer,3m 5200,do not believe what other's tell you,it's removable,it's not as permanent as some will tell you-i've removed and reinstalled numerous items set in 5200...do not use a silicone sealer ever !!!

here's a thru hull 'ducer installed by the owner...i removed this using no tools !!! i grabbed the 'ducer and twisted it out of the boat-i kid you not !!!
the owner purchased a raymarine "c" series unit and i was installing it,the reason the remove the 'ducer...the 'ducer was also turned slightly,as you see in the pictures,this is exactly how it appeared when i pulled the boat...scary thought huh ?




here's the fairing block this gentleman made,it was only on the inside of the hull...




this is the ducer...not the small sealing area...





look close at the pic,you can see the marks where i twisted the ducer around to unscrew it...

let's add to this shall we...

this is a transom mounted ducer...the owner of this boat ran the cable himself...this is what the cable looked like...
i replaced his fishfinder with a new one...he claimed the old one didn't work correctly...wonder why ?




this is what the ducer cable looked like when i removed it...nice huh

here's the finished product...


before...








after...

the idea of putting this up isn't to make fun of someone,or to show how smart i think i am...the idea is to keep someone from doing the same thing as these guys...it's showing yoou the correct way and why that way is correct...

Jawz, for myself I find your posts and writing to be very informative. If not only this thread others as well. I always learn something from you, whether I need it now or something to look back on or for future referances. Keep it up.
Joe

Jawz, this is good stuff

That is great. At the time I was installing my electronics I did not know much about them really but right in the structions...assuming you read them...it said DO NOT CUT OR SPLICE the transducer cable.

I do have to admit though...the only place I have ever soldered a wire together was to extend the NMEA wires to connect VFH, GPS and sonar together. This was after many conversations and I could not find anyone who did crimp them due to them being 20 or 22 AWG wires.

re: "crimp them due to them being 20 or 22 AWG wires."

Crimps for 20 and 22 AWG wires are readily available, but not in many marine supply stores. It's pretty much an electronics wholesale item (or maybe Radio Shack...seems they have less and less "useful stuff" these days"). What I don't think you will find, although I've not done an exhaustive search, is the splicers with the built-in heat shrink sleeves at 22AWG.

After many years of using a soldering iron on a very regular basis in my work, I usually solder everything and don't use crimp splicers, ever. I cover all soldered splices with heat shrink tubing and have never had one fail even after many years in a marine environment.

I've found that the biggest problem folks have with soldering electonics is trying to use a cheap and/or underpowered iron for the job at hand and the wrong solder/flux.

it's not reccomended for the marine environment,to solder any connections...solder can and will fail due to the vibration subjected to the joint in the marine environment...i recall an installation,done by a customer,the gentleman gave up trying to find the problem with the set-it was a raymarine "c 120".the problem was,the set would lose a signal from the gps antenna,i looked at the set,ran a few tests and removed the split loom protecting case around the wiring.i discovered the gentleman soldered the connections-not good ! i redid all the connections,problem solved...the owner asked what i found,i explained to him,about the soldering and how it can and will break,which is what occured,his reply was"i've soldered connections on everything,i was told that was the correct way,and that was what i was taught"...also,a much better way of "splicing" small diameter wire such as that-is the use of a junction block...wires that small are usually used for interfacing,read that as feeding different electronics information,it's much easier to use a small loop connector on a junction block...connectors for those size wires are readily available,just not to the masses,the big name boating supply stores don't normally have the correct size crimp connectors,if they do have them,i don't believe they will be "tinned",meaning,they're not really for marine use,such as the ones radio shack carries...
cutting a transducer cable,like the one i showed,isn't really reccomended at any time !! the gentleman who owned that boat,made the claim he couldn't get the connector to pass through the rigging tube ? the reason for cutting the cable...not sure why,it's a mako boat with a very large rigging tube,i had absolutley no problem...
like i stated,i've seen some big problems with some installations...it allways makes me say "what could you possibly be thinking"??? for more examples check the other thread "a real dual battery system"...

RE: soldering connections in a marine environment...
True, it's not for the average "I just bought this iron at Radio Shack for $4.95 handyperson or mechanic" HOWEVER... soldered connections fail under vibration when unsupported, i.e. at the transition from the soldered to the unsoldered wire. Using the proper heat shrink tubing and not applying excessive heat (which encourages the solder to wick up well into the wire and beyond the support of the heat shrink will result in long life connection(s)... also using crimp-on terminlas that do not have an "insulation support" (which usually requires a seperate crimp action unless one has the expensive professional tool) can also result in failure of the connection as well as failing to crimp the "insulation support" (the usual case). I had more than one wire at a crimp-on connection on a used boat I once purchased that had failed at the terminal (improperly crimped insulation support). That was the same boat that I did a solder splice with heat shrink tubing in 1979 that was still sound when I sold that boat in 1995. Normally I avoid splices at all costs unless one has the problem of no clearance for connectors in a cable run as mentioned.

Connections get soldered all the time in military electronics, even for the US Navy and they don't fail... at least not just because they were soldered. It's a matter of technique and workmanship.

bottom line is,soldering a connection is not reccomended in the marine industry...
and true,crimps are often done poorly as well...my favorite saying is "you should need a license to purchase tools"...using non marine grade wire and non tinned conncections is not reccomended either...

Most DIY and less than knowledgable mechanics use the el cheapo plier style crimp tool that comes in the "kit". It is almost impossible to get sufficient force on those handels to get the pressure that the whole crimp-on technology is based on. In order to get those crimps to really work, one needs a controlled cycle crimper that features a guaranteed crimp pressure before release. These crimpers always feature a compound action like a bolt cutter.

Neither crimp-on connectors nor soldering (or any other work on a boat that impacts safety) should be done by anyone "working above their pay grade".

this is why i allways state "you should need a liscence to purchase tools"...and again,soldering a connection is not reccomended for the marine industry...

I feel that Jawz is very generous and provides the readers here very valuable information. He should be commended.

The sharing of his knowledge gives us professional advice that serves us well. Thanks.

thanks !

if i can help someone out,just ask...you're allways welcomed to call too...

good stuff. i enjoyed reading it. I invested in good crimpers and heat tubing equip for my projects. a couple wraps of the tape they sell at the boat show has also proven to be good for keeping the wires together.

When I received my Polar 27 WA in Sept, the Raymarine c120 and yamaha gauges were not wired correctly. I took apart the connections my self to get GPS data back into the yamaha gauges. The Polar connections were excellent and I replaced with crimping, heat shrink tubbing, and some tape.

Great info here Jawz, love reading your posts with this kinda stuff. Like Retriever, although I know solder is not recommended for marine applications, I tend to solder everything, I just have a hard time trusting crimps, so far I've had very few if any problems. Maybe its time to rethink my wiring techniques.

you need to purchase a real crimper,not the $5 style...you need a good ratchet style-these are not cheap...it's like battery terminal tools,my crimpers were in the area of $400,these have the dies to properly crimp all the terminals,most people do not have this style.
soldering,as i've stated previous,is not an accepted method of making connections in the marine environment.

remember all this when a guy who works out of his truck pulls up to work on your boat....

I had the yard install a transducer on my vessel. I'm not sure it was done correctly.

don't see a transducer in this picture ???

Jawz, I think its a transom mount ducer in the lower right corner of the picture mounted from under the boat???

Now that you mention it, id does look like a transom mount, mounted upside down.

We just installed an Airmar tilted element in my buddies Albemarle yesterday replacing one that sort of looked like jawz's example above. The wood fairing block was quite rotted but still took some persuasion to remove the old one. Once removed the stem was bend about 1/2" off center...probably a good idea it was being replaced. Now the fun begins snaking the wire up to the bridge.

i have 2 transom tranducers and i have tryed every angle up and down and still lose the signal after the boat gets up on plane ,any ideas?. o only use one at a time.dont think you can use two df at the same time ? one is a raymarine dsx,the other is garmines new one.I do have a photo of the stern ,i will try to post

Here's what I did... Someone else tried it and liked it and posted to Wikia..

http://www.marine-engines.wikia.com/wiki/Fierro%27s_in-hull_guide


I have a picture avail if anyone is interested... This will be my 4th season... no problems. It's a Humminbird Matrix Dual beam.

still don't see a 'ducer in that photo...sorry...inboard powered boats can not use a transom mounted 'ducer,the signal will be lost as soon as the boat starts moving-prop wash will cause this...

as far as losing a signal is concerned on a transom mounted 'ducer,it's usually an installation problem-i've lost count of the 'ducers i've installed,never had a problem with a transom mount losing signal-ever...
post up a pic of the back end of the boat...


couldn't follow that link there bob...wanna try again ?

I run two transom mount ducers both at the same time. one garmin, one furuno...no problems at any speed upto 35 knots.

jawz, the transducer is located on the transom just above the concrete blocks supporting hull. It is mounted vertically on transom.

this is when people think i'm rude...but...here goes...

you're kidding me,right ? exactly why would anyone put a transducer there ? that rig,looks like a old school pacemaker wahoo,yes ?

Jawz...

Try a copy and past of the link into the address bar in your internet browser.

thought you were an engineer ? there's a waaaay easier way to do that...you're working too hard with that set up...

Jawz, it was a partial joke in that it is not my boat but another vessel in front of me dry docked @ Holiday Harbor. I have never met owner. He was dry docked before me last fall & I haven't seen him/her this spring as yet. Hopefully, I'll meet captain before I leave for my marina.

trust me,some of the stuff i see everyday,i would believe that...i could write a book...

Are you referring to the link or the transducer installation?
BTW...Engineers don't always look for the easiest way to do something... just the best. Where "Best" is not defined as the "be all" and "end all" of perfection, but the solution that best meets the conditions (performance, time available, cost, quality, resources...etc) that the problem presents.

there's a much easier,and better way to go about installing a transducer in that fashion you described...however,i choose to go an accepted route,use the proper equipment for the job...it's kinda like using a volvo outdrive behind a merc engine,something i wouldn't do...if you're gonna install something,use the proper equipment,granted,sometimes the improper equipment will work...
honda motor company had a print ad a few years ago,it was a picture of a chair,one leg was broken,someone tied a stick to it,this was the repair,it stated " sure it's fixed,but would you sit on it "??? me,i stick with what works for me,i'm sure you can spend your time "reinventing the wheel",i'm pretty confident you've got time on your hands with the financial market being what it is...it's much better to use the correct thru hull ducer,along with a fairing block cut at the correct angle,or to properly install a transom mounted 'ducer-afterall,that's what they were designed for...

and no offense,if that's the best set up you can come up with,i see why you're in the mortgage buisness rather than the engineering buisness...

Re: "it's much better to use the correct thru hull ducer,along with a fairing block cut at the correct angle,or to properly install a transom mounted 'ducer-afterall,that's what they were designed for..."

First...per my previous post.."but the solution that best meets the conditions (performance, time available, cost, quality, resources...etc) that the problem presents."

1) I don't like to drill un-necessary holes in my hull. And I'd hardly call "shooting thru the hull" as something that the transducer wasn't designed for since the installation instruction with my transducer indicated that doing that was acceptable...and the transducer supplied was not a thru hull.
2) Mounting it on the transom... OK that's what I originally wanted to do.. but then again READING THE MANUFACTURERS INSTRUCTIONS I realised that there wasn't enough room on the transom to do that due to the trim tabs.

Sooo.... back to shooting thru the hull. Given the location of the external wedge water strainer on the hull I wasn't sure that the location that I'd picked would not be a problem due to the nearby strainer so I wanted a way that was "not permanent".

Also... since my wife gave me the sonar as a Father's Day gift and the boat was in the water already where it lives 7 months of the year, I did not want to pay to have the boat hauled... which I would have to do for EITHER method you insist are the only right ways to do it.

As I said... "but the solution that best meets the conditions (performance, time available, cost, quality, resources...etc) that the problem presents."

Furthermore I take exception to your snide and totally unfounded attacks on my engineering ability.

The reason I'm not working as an engineer is two fold.
a) They exported my job overseas.
b) I worked in the Whippany area and live in Island Heights.
The 4 hr per day commute and the 10 hrs/day work day and the high stress were taking a toll on my health...

As to how good I was as an engineer... I worked for almost 20 years as a consultant at Bell Labs and Lucent and for one of the Lucent spin-offs. I was not the typical (get hired and write 20000 lines of code and leave programmer)consultants... I got hired by and large to bail Bell Labs and Lucent out of problems. I have two high tech patents and had two others pending.

BTW... My boat has a MERC engine in front of a VOLVO drive.
Something that you think is somehow "improper"... Again.. you don't understand the problem to be solved.

Volvo drive ChrisCraft Lancers have an unusual setup. While they use a sterndrive, they do not PER CHRIS CRAFT REQUIREMENTS use a sterndrive engine. They have a special intermediate housing (elongated) that takes an INBOARD, i.e., bobtail engine. Hence the 5.7L MIE engine. Why MERC... A friend of mine was badly screwed by VOLVO on a warranty issue, so I took my business elsewhere. The last time I re-engined a 1969 Lancer (not this hull) I installed a 318 Chrysler... A bobtail engine is a bobtail engine.

Also...re:"i'm sure you can spend your time "reinventing the wheel"... Actually not so much "inventing the wheel", but improving it. I was a hardware and systems development engineer.
Always looking for better ways to do things. I didn't make "the big bucks" listening to someone telling me what the "only way " was to do something.

You may a very good at what you do... Don't make the assumption that there aren't others out there who aren't as good or better than you are at what they do.

wow tht was good !

"and no offense,if that's the best set up you can come up with,i see why you're in the mortgage buisness rather than the engineering buisness..."

Jawz, that is a pretty low blow. I did not see anyone take a shot at some your remarks when patting yourself on the back over and over again about the great work you do. So lets be taking shots at others when there is little or no reason to do so.

I was just looking for the best way to set up 2 transducers on the back of my grady white.

Finally met owner of boat that has vertically mounted transducer on transom. He is not original owner & has no idea why the transducer is where it's at. Unending mystery !!

I thought it was a gag photo !!!! mmmmm..... maybe it's used as an aid when backing the boat into a slip :-)?

I wish I took a picture of an underwater light installed on an old 32 Blackfin that was for sale that we looked at. The guy glassed in an 8" section of PVC pipe through the transom, then epoxied a clear Plexiglas lens at the end and stuffed a round car headlight into the PVC pipe. Scary stuff out there.

hey bob ! good talking with you yesterday !!

i'll put up a few pictures of the bertram,launched,sea trialed and ready to roll....


if you guys seen half of the stuff i see on a regular basis you would write a book...

true story here...

i put an autopilot on a customer's boat,i take them out for the sea trial,to check the unit and expalin how it works to them-new boat owners.i explain,i interface the pilot into the navnet,set a waypoint,the pilot will follow it,by doing this...i explain,the pilot will run the boat,all you have to do,is make sure nothing's in the way between you and where you're headed...the owner states,the pilot won't steer around it ?


i had a job from another glass shop,this shop attempted to make a 23 mako inboard into a 26' mako inboard,they added 3 feet to the boat,cut out the transom,"sistered" the stringers...i put a screwdriver through the boat,with minimal effort,needless to say,that boat was hauled to the dump...

again,trust me guys,i've seen some real good ones...

all time best-i was telling capt bob this yesterday...

seen a few guys who actually fiberglass coat a leaking aluminum fuel tank-then brag their repair is much better than new...

Retriever, I kinda thought that as well but could get same effect by looking over one's shoulder tho when I back into slip I face aft. It's just easier for me doing that.
Also thought it c/b used as a fish finder when anchored & viewing fish in chum slick behind boat???
Boat was heavily fished by condition of transom. "MANY" nicks in painted transom.....gaff or sinkers banging transom

On the subject of AL gas tank leak repairs...
On another website that I haunt someone was telling about their AL gas tank leak fix...
Screw plate over the leak on the bottom using...brass screws and 3M sealant on the plate!

RE: Bert... sigh... reminds me of the Bert25 I/O softtop I lost in a divorce. Had just fixed some minor hull items, removed all the previous owners "improvements" cleaned up some wiring issues and was new engine/drive shopping.

BTW...Good talking to you yesterday